It Takes One to Know One
by Cyberin on Oct.29, 2009, under Community, General
Recently there was a rather large debate that started in the EVE-Bloggers Channel ingame, I only made it in for the last part of it. I’ve read the chat logs of the discussion, as well as Vol’s post about it, and have some things I’d like to say.
Before I start though…let me explain a bit about myself. In game I am an arrogant ass that likes to take peoples shit, coax them into shooting me so I can splatter them all over the place, and then take their shit again. Why do I do this?…because EVE is a harsh place…and it was designed to be that way. BUT…in the real world, I’m a nice guy…married with 2 kids. I give to charity, I volunteer to help people when I can…and I don’t rob banks. For those of you who think that ingame = inlife…you are wrong. (This statement is not aimed at anyone in particular…just wanted to say that I value everyone’s opinion. I may not agree with them, but I will never stoop to personal insults or rudeness when having a discussion while not in character…it just isn’t me).
So here follows my ‘opinion’ and ‘unique-view’ on some of the things that Vol mentioned in the blog post I listed above.
The first part of his post mentions people being able to get around the criminal aggression timer for outlaws by using orcas, etc…I don’t know anything about it since I’m not an outlaw, and I didn’t realize it worked like that. So that’s all I’ll be saying about that, and for obvious reasons…the rest of this post will be about the Ninja Salvaging portion of mine and Vol differing opinions. Also, to make it a bit more streamlined, I’m going to respond to things that Vol says…without mentioning that he said them…he knows what he wrote, and since this blog post is actually more of a long comment for him on my opinions…i don’t think I need to repeat everything he said and make this post twice as long (though I’ve already done so from all this mumbling about it…oops)
Ninja Salvagers vs. Risk
I’m not going to lie and say we take all kinds of risk…but I do think we take ’some’ risk. We have our reputations to worry about ya know! Also, when I come into a mission…sometimes people like to shoot at me. Sometimes after I take their stuff, sometimes even before. Granted…I am flying a cheap ship most times…but I have been killed before…so however small it is…that is a risk I take when I enter a mission to collect my salvage.
Salvaging and Looting Mechanics
One thing I did agree with Vol on was that it is strange that CCP says the wreck is not ‘owned’ by anyone…yet only the killer of the rat can loot, or tractor the wreck. I think that if the wreck is not owned by anyone…anyone should be able to tractor it. The loot I agree with…as it is not part of the wreck, it is something inside of it, but the wreck itself should be tractorable by all…it makes sense.
Saying that Ninjas should be flashy for salvaging is the oldest argument in the book. It has been beaten to death, and CCP has stated it is meant to be like that, they designed it to be like that, they LIKE it like that, and it will not change…get over it!
“CCP has been very clear about this topic.”
I lied a little earlier…I have to quote Vol on this topic…I can’t talk clearly about it without having a reference to what I’m responding to.
CCP has also made mistakes in the past. A lot of them. Big ones. CCP is not infallible. To use the defense that it is structured that way, intended that way, legal that way, is very scary, in New Eden and out. Something is just, balanced, and fair based on its own merits, not because the game designer says so.
What? This is CCPs game…not ours. They made it, they decide what to do with it, THEY decide if it is balanced or not. Yes, they may take opinions from players if they want…but they certainly don’t have to. And in this case…they have decided not to…as can be proven here. I agree that something is balanced based on it’s own merits…but the game designers are the ones that determine those merits…so actually, if they say it’s balanced…it is…because it’s THEIR game.
Eve is dangerous and you are never completely safe.
I agree that there should be more risk for Ninja Salvagers…I truly do. I do not however think that risk should come from the act of salvaging…for the simple fact that it doesn’t make sense…for wreck ownership reasons stated above that will not be changing. Definition of salvage…I don’t see anything about ownership in there…do you?
There are plenty of other ways to make my job harder…and those are the ones I think we should consider. (Though…I feel adding something into the New Player experience about the topic would be helpful…tell the noobs to quit shooting at me).
(oh, and a bit off topic since I’m not talking about suicide gankers here…but this statement “Today, the suicide pirate falls onto your kill rights board, but the hauler next too him does not.” makes no sense…you can shoot the hauler that takes the stuff out of your wreck 
)
The Rest of It
EVE is a harsh place. It was designed that way…and it is why most people play it. When you log into the game you realize that PvP is around the corner. It was DESIGNED to be that way. So the arguement that people use saying…”well, I don’t want to be forced to PvP”…you are playing the wrong game then…that is what EVE is about!
By saying that you don’t want to be forced into PvP because it is unfair to you is hypocritical. In order to allow you to have a choice of PvP or not, you would have to take that choice away from the person that was trying to kill you…which would ruin the game.
I just can’t think of any better way to explain it because it’s just hard for me to fathom in my mind how people can say they don’t want to be forced into PvP in a PvP oriented game. This isn’t World of Warcraft…there is not PvE server to choose from.
I don’t feel that carebears are inferior…we need them…we need ships, and we need people to make wrecks for us…it is a legitimate play style. BUT…whether you are a carebear or not, PvP is around the corner…and that will not change do to the nature of the game.
Everyone wants to play the game their own way…and that is possible within the design limits of the game. If you go over to World of Warcraft on a PvP server…you expect to find PvP…even in the noob zones…well…guess what, EVE is that PvP Server.
The Blogoverse
I completely agree with Vol on this one. There have been a few bloggers that turned this into some sort of personal flame war…complete with insults and belittling. I thought all of us were above that. People have opinions…and they can be discussed and argued in a manner that doesn’t try and belittle anyone. I would think that us bloggers, out of everyone, should understand that.
p.p.s I meant to mention this earlier: all spawns should be like Sleeper spawns. I don’t like kill missions cause they are just one big rinse/repeat. The only way the mission can defeat you is through sheer numbers. It should work smarter, not harder. Making the spawns smarter will not only give the missioners a challenge, but make things more interesting for the ninjas.
I agree 
I laugh at those people that leave some Battleship spawns in their missions hoping they kill me. Have you ever tried killing those frigates in mission with your Battleship?…guess what…same result the other way around. I’d love to actually have to worry about those rats you guys leave behind…because right now…if it’s a Battlecruiser or Battleship…it has no effect on me at all…I often salvage entire rooms of wrecks while I speedtank 8 Rat Battleships.
p.s. I love ya Vol 
October 29th, 2009 on 10:31 am
Well, I’m glad you navigated your way through that giant chat log and laid it down for the rest of us. I saw that thing and immediately closed it.
Anyway, the risk vs. reward argument kills me. One thing you have to remember when you hear this arguement is that it always, 100% of the time, comes from bears that run missions IN HIGH SEC! Don’t tell me about risk vs. reward….
I think I may have to grace that chat channel with my presence one day. It sounds like there’s lots of good tears to be gathered there.
October 29th, 2009 on 9:32 pm
Well I’d like to pull you up on the assumption that ingame != realife. How many missions to you ninja of people you know in real life? and that you both know who the other is? I’d guess none but please tell me if I am wrong.
My point is that there is no difference between a prick in game who claims to be a nice person in RL and a a prick in game who is also a prick in RL. You see as far as the other person is concerned the only thing that they interact with is your in game persona. RL persona has no relevance, so stop trying to defend your actions as just something you do in a game. For all intents and purposes you are the persona in game as out of game, the difference is the social conditioning that leads you to think you can get away with one set of behavior in one set of circumstances and a different set of behavior in another. If you thought you would be punished in game for doing what you do you would either a) not do it or b) attempt to avoid punishment.
The fact is that ninja salvaging is considered to be something that is not punishment worthy by CCP currently and thus the “profession” thrives.
Personally I think ninja salvaging is too easy with too little risk and is used as a griefing mechanic rather than a legitamte money making technique. Then again I think mission running is too easy, but at least it requires a big investment in skills.
October 29th, 2009 on 10:13 pm
Who I know in real life has nothing to do with anything.
We all have our opinions…and if yours is that just because someone is a prick in a game, then that means they are a prick in real life…then you need to get out more. I play this game to enjoy myself. I played the first year, year and a half as a carebear…and I was never satisfied. Then I looked back at all my other games…I always play the bad guy if given the choice…always. So, I wondered why I wasn’t doing so in EVE…now I am, and I’m enjoying it again.
Your arguments about punishments in/out of game, personas, etc…all actually prove my point…not yours. Yes…I do what I do in game because there are no punishments to doing it in game. I can have fun in the GAME…it is a game right?
I also said that I think ninja salvaging is too easy…I would love to have a bit more of a challenge…but one that makes sense. Making salvaging give aggro definitely does not make any sense. You also prove my point again when you say that it is too easy and is not a legitimate money making technique. You are 100% correct…it is not a good way to make money, but I don’t do it for the money…I do it for the FUN…why?…because this is a GAME.
October 30th, 2009 on 3:30 am
It is always interesting to see what different players think the game is intended to be. You say it is made for PvP, and I agree. BUT: it is also made for a lot of things beside PvP. Otherwise, what the HELL have I been doing the last three years without a single PvP engagement?
Somehow players that like to PvP reduce the game to PvP, and those that do not like PvP want that aspect of the game taken out because they do not want it.
What everyone should try to realize is that EVE caters to all these player types. In my opinion, the confusion comes from the mixing of styles. Put carebears and pirates in the same box and you get an explosive mix. And that’s exactly what CCP intended…
My advice: adapt or whine.
October 30th, 2009 on 8:59 am
I’m not saying people can’t do what they want. I’m just saying that when carebears whine that the game is unfair, those are the ones that need to realize this is a PvP game…and it was designed to make people interact with each other. I know some people want to play solo (obviously…lol)…but that the game was designed to prevent it as much as possible through the game mechanics.
Yes, I understand I’m doing something someone doesn’t want me to do…but those people need to realize I am doing something the game was designed for me to do…so whining about having it changed is meh.
Though, I agree with most everyone that says it needs a little balancing…
October 30th, 2009 on 11:14 am
I think a lot of people wrongly think PvP means “Target, web, scram, pop, loot repeat…”
When you buy low and sell high, you are playing against another player.
When you suck a belt dry in 3 Hulks in an Orca and there are guys out there in Bantams you are playing against another player.
When you spend 3 years working on Industrial skills to invent/research/reverse engineer TII and TIII production, and you sell an item and another player doesn’t you have just scored a victory against another player.
PvP doesn’t instantly mean Player Vs. Player Combat, so yes, I fully endorse the view of EVE as a PvP oriented game.
I would go so far as to say that Lvl 5’s, being equivalent to raids in other games in that most require you to put together a group of players to attack the Environment of the game, are the FIRST significant PvE development since the game came out.
And Ninja Salvaging ™? Perfectly reasonable and I recommend all new players give it a shot, though I never have. Why? Because it is a great, easy way for new players to make good cash early, and because of the real world parallel: All over Kuwait there are burned out tanks and equipment strewn across the desert from both the Iraqi invasion, AND the first Gulf War that followed. Locals, being mainly poor, have stripped these hulks for useful components and either sold, or repaired and sold. There’s a sizable The US and even Kuwaiti Army saw no need to send salvager teams to recover them, nor do they deploy troops to keep people from messing with them.
I’ve done pretty much everything in the game. Never Ninja’d since by the time I could use salvagers, I was running lvl IV’s myself because I’m a dumbass and no one told me about them. That could be the primary reason I don’t see salvaging as just a way to augment the already rediculous income stream of lvl IV missions.
I’ve always been keenly aware of how almost ANY action I’ve taken in the game, has consequences for other people, and apart from shooting rats in missions, (getting to that 1.4M triple BS officer spawn in nullsec before another guy is still a form of PvP) which leads me to believe CCP has always intended this game to be about competitive player interaction.
October 30th, 2009 on 11:22 am
exactly
November 7th, 2009 on 7:11 am
I thought this arguement was funny. Funny in the sense that the pretend toughs of this game (Pirates, PvPers, whatever you want to call them) typically claim to be nice people IRL. As a Marine, many probably wouldn’t think I am a nice person, as ultimately our mission in life is “to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver or to repel his assault by fire and close combat.” FMFM 6-4 at 1102.a.
Now despite ongoing engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan as Marines we carry the burden of Humanitarian Aid/Disaster Relief which up until OEF/OIF accounted for nearly 90% of our missions.
So sometimes we might be that Carebear, but we are the meanest damn RL PvPer you will ever meet on a battlefield.
So the point here is that the developers took steps to make Eve mirror life as best as they could and alllow people to be what they wanted to.
What it comes down to is a simple concept: Character. Recently I had a lot of time to think about this as I was laid up in a hospital with one lung colapsed and having lost half the blood in my body. Funny thing is it wasn’t work related, but rather that I play as hard as I work and sometime stuff doesn’t go the way you want it to.
But I digress, for some reason a question that was asked when I was in school taking philosophy came to mind. If you could be or do anything without consequence would you be the same person you are now?
Eve allows a person to answer this question. Do you remain true to who you claim to be or do you become something else entirely? Moral implications aside, Eve truly allows people to be who they really are.
The argument of “it is just a game” is simply a person’s way of rationalizing the fulfillment of doing what they would do without any real consequence. In the end it really is about having the opportunity to answer the philosophical question. Right and wrong in Eve is irrelevant.
That being said I found that I naturally fell into a Eve personality that reflected my character. As in real life if I perceived you as a threat and the opportunity presented itself, just say it would suck not to have a clone. Likewise, ninja salvaging/looting – I don’t do it but after serving in Iraq I realized in other parts of the world it really is an accepted way of life. As far as the risk associated with ninja looting, I think it is sufficient. I say this because every mission I run I take up one HS for a salvager. Someone jumps in to my mission and starts ninja salvaging, I say good on them. I might not like the fact that they take my loot but the societal rules of Eve indicate that it is not a crime.
Again the idea of Eve is to mirror RL as close as possible when it comes to free play of career. Just like we have people begging in the streets, children pick-pocketing out in front of the Vatican, or people who traffic in other human beings Eve lets us explore what our character is without RL consequence.
In the end I have to say AeonOfTime was closest to the mark and his advice is pretty solid. Just don’t fool yourself, what you do in game is a reflection of your true character, while most people find it completely acceptable to lie to themselves and rationalize what they do in game, ultimately as long as control that part of their character in their daily face-to-face interactions – no harm, no foul.
See you in New Eden,
Ferrix
November 7th, 2009 on 7:52 am
While I respect your opinion (and by the way, I’m in the Air Force, and respect what you guys do out there on the front lines very much!), in the end, it is exactly that…an opinion. And mine is, and will always be…that EVE is a game…and what I do in game does NOT have a reflection of how I am in real life. I know this without a shadow of a doubt…because I know myself and who I truly am…my wife and children know me, and the rest of my friends and family know me.
Whether people in this game know me is none of my concern, and in the end it boils down to what everyone’s personal opinion is…and that can’t be changed.
But, it is always nice to have people like you do have a civilized discussion about it with!
November 8th, 2009 on 11:41 pm
ah fine I am going to get back in and hopefully clarify my position.
My take on the matter is that it doesn’t matter who you are in real life as far as anyone you interact with in game is concerned you are your in game character.
By this I mean it doesn’t matter if you are a saint or a sinner in real life, because the average person you interact with will never get to know that person. They will only ever meet your in game character. Which kinda makes it a bit silly saying “yeah I just screwed you over but I am a nice person in real life” since they will never meet that real person.
Thats my major point which I think I failed to explain coherently.
But I also want to touch on
“Your arguments about punishments in/out of game, personas, etc…all actually prove my point…not yours. Yes…I do what I do in game because there are no punishments to doing it in game. I can have fun in the GAME…it is a game right?”
…well yes and no. To me it depends on whether you are what you do or whether you are some internal you. You seem to suggest you are what you do, by saying your real life actions make you a nice guy, while your in game actions are…less so
For myself I think you are more the you inside and that your actions are emergent behavior arising from placing that internal you in the context of your suroundings and situation. Which I think is a little more along the lines of Ferrix’s thoughts. So I think you are the person and/or actions taken in a no consequences environment.
But either way round just dare to be nasty! Be unashamably nasty, stand behind your actions in game and leave it at that. But by the same token understand there will be some people who wont love you for it…
does that make any more sense? I posted here cause I do read you blog and while I don’t agree with much of what you do I am impressed/interested in your thoughts.
November 9th, 2009 on 9:21 am
I think all you philosophical guys are digging way too deep
. I’m a good guy in life, and I like to play the bad guy in my video games…simple as that 