Hands Off, My Loots!

Now I want my drake back that I lost to not jumping through quick enough too :/

Nah this shouldn't be reimbursed, unless it is really an exploit which this isn't.

I agree that ninjas due use a valid tactic and bravo for spotting such an effective tactic, however it is rather unreasonable that a wreck can extend the aggression timer. That being said, I'm rather surprised that the ship was reimbursed as it (using wrecks to sustain aggro) is a valid tactic. CCP should not give anymore ships back and change continued aggression rules. Props to Stab for being polite and calm through the whole thing though, had he blown up I doubt his request would have been honored.

I know a guy who had responses to petitions from several gms recently over an issue involving a level 4 mission randomly despawning which prevented him from completing – the first few responses he were all about random mission mechanics and respawn triggers, which had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to this particular mission so he kept throwing it back at them to clarify what they were going on about. The guy has been doing missions for 4 years and knows well how it works but the gms he spoke to clearly had no idea what they were going on about – I wonder if they have a bunch of new folks working up there on the ticket desk. Even so I've heard of many cases over the yeears of petitioned ships lost to flimsy explanations which have been reimbursed with a “now don't do it again” message from the gms!

I disagree, the tutorials, guides, and more or less everything I've seen in the last two years ALL state that aggression only lasts for 15 minutes, and don't mention any aggro-extending other then if you get shot by the aggressor. EVE has more then enough bugs to go around, and it's possible, if not likley, that he might've thought it as a bug and went about his business, because he hadn't been shot or any other “usual” ways of getting aggro.

Now, ignorance is typically no excuse for the rules, but this really is an exploit, unless CCP says they designed it this way on purpose, but I doubt so, probably just easier to set a global “flag” that all of player X's stuff can be shot by Y.

“An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers”

I've yet to hear CCP ever mention this, in my 2 years of play, so I'm fairly sure that this is technically and semantically an exploit, and to make it a non-exploit they should note this somewhere, maybe under the eve-wiki

Just because it works doesn't mean it is an intended mechanic. Can you point to a dev saying that aggro extension is intended?

The mechanic is ridiculous; in what set of rules does it make sense that you should legally be able to extend the length of time you have to attack a character because you shot at his property? If anything it seems it should be the other way around. You shot at his property, so he should be able to shoot at you. Seems like a bug and not intended functionality.

With that said, it would be great if CCP provided some comment about this.

WOW! Ninja tears I'd say stabbed up just pulled off a sweet scam and you are all just jelious.

Shooting wrecks works and it's not a sudden revilation either. If it's right or wrong I'll not bother with.

Cheers

EVE SOB

hm,

first of all, i really like you blog like the rest of the other ninja blogs, BUT in my point of view it is an exploit. As Stabs already said in his petition, that it's not okay, that the aggression timer gets extendet if the ninja shoots at wrecks. In the end it is the ninja, that agresses over and over again and the only solution for the missionrunner is to stay docked or log off. I don't think that thats what should be intended.

Even if i use this mechanic by myself and some others, some of these technics aren't right. Example: switching ships with an orca alt, without agression for the alt. These are mechanics that are not punished at the moment but are used very well by intelligent players. All these mechanics remind me of the 3.1 Patch in WoW after that mages could solo one wing of a raid-dungeon and get really really rich! does it work? yes! is it fair? no.

I know it is only a game, a very rude game, but there are some mechanics in the game that aren't fair at all. One of them got just removed (deep safe spots)

Wow! All I can say is shame on CCP for resolving his petition that way. He never should have received compensation for a valid tactic. And to the commenters here who demand to see where this is documented functionality… are you serious?? Do you think every single aspect of possible gameplay should be written down for you?? Stabs had it backwards. He couldn't understand why the timer was resetting when he wasn't aggressing but it was the other way around. The aggro timer is linked to each instance of aggression! So of course the ninja would restart it if he kept looting/shooting cans. Wouldn't you want it this way if you were the loot owner??

I actually wouldn't mind if CCP changed the way it worked. While I do love the current way it works, I do actually agree that it can be 'abused'….I've personally extended aggro for over 2 hours before. But as is, it's not an exploit…so I don't think the ship should have been reimbursed.

If it was an exploit, they'd say it was..and then punish people for doing it. CCP on multiple occassions have said they know about it, and intend it to work as such. The only 'bug' with the system was fixed recently. It didn't used to update the visual timer for the Mission Runner (or whoever else shoots)…and now it does. If CCP didn't want it to work like this, don't you think they would have removed it entirely…rather than fixing the timer to display correctly?

Already stated my opinion on the 'intension' part of it in a previous comment, as well as saying I actually wouldn't mind if they changed it because I can understand how it's unfair…but then again, eve isn't really a fair game is it?

Who's to say if it's intended or not though? The devs haven't said one way or the other (that I could find). I would challenge anyone to start an eve-o thread about it requesting a dev response though. (I won't do it myself for obvious reasons….).

If someone does start that thread…please make sure to leave a comment with a link for me

I'm not expecting fair; it just seems reasonable to expect … well, reasonable. The mechanic is silly.

I'm not angry about it, it just hits some people unexpectedly; often to ninja advantage. Which is actually good for my exploring business as I can sell more of that faction and deadspace loot.

Bah. It's an intended game mechanic. This guy just lacked the patience to wait and was too stubborn to log and come back another day like most intelligent MR's do. The GM who reimbursed him should be called to task for it, frankly.

Keep in mind that this aggro mechanic works both ways and is inherently fair, in that if someone is popping your stuff it (rightly!) extends aggro and gives you the ability to go back out there and shoot them back. It's only in this specific situation where it has the appearance of being 'unfair', as whiny MR's who shoot at Ninjas don't want to pay for their actions. If the MR wants to fight, but has to go a few jumps to get and fit their own gank ship, this mechanic would actually work in their favour (giving them enough time to get back)…

It's a fair mechanic. Working as intended.

And…..WoW? Maybe you should pick up the ol' battle axe and head back there.

Also posted this over at Stabbed Up:

Fair enough him getting his ship back, if he was not familiar with the agro extension bug/feature then who was to say if he was saying was just an error if it was the first time?

He didnt get his modules back but landed himself with a replacement ship which I think is lesson enough.

I live in 0.0 space so aggression timers are not part of my daily encounters, are they only of use to mission running grievers?

since when does eve care if someone “was familiar with” an bug/feature?..never…

Comes down to if the GM got some poon the night before I suppose…

No, heading back to wow won't happen. After 5 years the game changed in a way I'd never play that way again.

Eve too has its issues that don't feel rightin my eyes but they don't effect my gamestyle. Agressiontimers are in anyway one of those issues IMHO and the use of an orca alt that doesn't get aggression is another point. I for myself never really had troubles with ninjas.

And that's what it's all about. I don't think that it is 100% intended that both aggressiontimers get extended.

I've been working all night and am too tired to retype, so here's a copy-paste of my reply on the official site (sig included for shits and giggles)

I don't think (or maybe don't want to believe) that even the staff making such horrible decisions as sacrificing quality for quantity is THIS bad!
Does the mechanic make little-to-no sense…Yes, of course..
Is it a valid and LONG-KNOWN game mechanic…Yes, of course..

How many people lost ships and other crap when deep safes were removed? Better yet, how many people were reimbursed when someone using a deep safe popped them?? ZERO

Either no reimbursment happened, or CCP is failing in more areas than just develeopment priorities!
–Zan–

Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word]
(quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)

On a related note, how long do you guys think it'll be before my sig is removed in the official forums?

-Zan-

What's wrong with an orca alt that doesn't gain aggression? Same concept as a station getting aggression if you dock and change ships…I would support an aggression docking timer for the orca though, that would make sense.

Why do you think that? It wouldn't make sense for both of them to not get extended.

what official thread are you talking about?

Quiet simple,

if the missionrunner does nothing else just waits out that the agressiontimer that he started (!!!) runs out. The ninja started his first aggression timer by looting and that got extended by the mission runner shooting him. These are two different timers. It makes absolutely no sense that they are connected to each other. Everytime the ninja shoots/webs/scrambles/loots wrecks his aggressiontimer should get extended but not the one of the missionrunner.

And before anyone says “thyrum hates ninjas and is carebear with tears in his eyes” I'd like to say that that's absolutely wrong. I really like every career in eve. It's funny to read all that stuff what ninjas, mission runners, plex runners, large scale pvpers, pirates and on and on do and like. I for myself prefer the more honourable ways (like honouring ransoms and more or less no use of metagaming or scamming). But anyhow there are some gamemechanics that are IMHO not okay. Some may work as intended and this one, well I'd say CCP never thought about the ways it could get abused. It like Morpheus says in Matrix in the jump program: “some rules can be bent, some others can be broken”. Rules that can be broken shall get fixed asap and the user punished. Rules that are bender should be looked after and thought about if they work 100% as intended. In this case everything that the game itself explains (tutorials and AURA) says that agressiontimers are 15 min long and can be only extended if the gamer takes action to do so, but not by another gamer punishment.

Hopefully I could explain my point (english is only my third language )

I'm leaning two ways on this situation personally. As this is regarded as a valid game mechanic( i'll take people's word for this :p ), no he should not have gotten his shiny back and this reimbursement is a load of horse manure.

On the other hand, I do agree with him, that this 'mechanic' doesn't make sense, and should be considered an exploit / fixed. The only way the agression timer should be extended is by having the person who's timer is running actively doing something, not someone doing something while he's doing nothing.

So on both accounts, I think CCP here is doing something wrong.

Hm,

As far as I know it's possible to change your ship directly next to the target (missionrunner in this case). I do believe, that this is quiet familiar to remote repping which does get give the remote repper pilot aggression. It is just a thought but the orca alt isn't such a big issue like that agressiontimers bug/exploit (who knows?). In the end it doesn't fill “right”. Maybe I'm just a too good guy or something.

In the end a change about the orca alt would be a lesser issue, cause it would only alter just a bit the tactics of ninjas and only of those that really use the alt next to the fight.

Literally Pathetic

waah waah ninja tears oh no i dislike what happened and theres been a level-headed response but ill say its tears any way waah.

OT:
“Next time a mission runner blows me up, I’m gonna petition it and get my vigil reimbursed by linking to Stabs’ post…by all accounts, it should work right?”

i fail to see how you've linked someone shooting you because you looted a wreck, and using exploits to extend a 15 min aggro timer to over an hour? please explain, id honestly be interested to know

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topi…

I understand how the ninja (or roach i like to call them) is attacking the wreck or drone or whatever left behind belonging to the victim to extend aggro. However, IF what stabs describe as every time the aggro is jumping back to 9 minute when it reach 7 then it must be a bug since a re-aggro act should put him back to 15 minute and not increasing by random time